RE: describing the minority as literate is a circular argument?

[Bruce Byfield <bbyfield -at- axionet -dot- com>]

Quoting mlist -at- safenet-inc -dot- com:

> I'm as prone 
> as anybody to that goof, so normally I wouldn't bother 
> to mention it, but here it's a neat encapsulation of 
> how a simple rule about order and placement conveys 
> useful information... until it is ignored or otherwise 
> subverted.  (I'm drawing a parallel here to the niggling 
> little rules of grammar and "proper" usage.)

My apologies for the slip, but let's explore this further. Does anyone really
care who made the statement? That might matter if I was making a personal
attack, but in this case I was only interested in the actual argument. 

In other words, raising it at all is analogous to nitpicking over grammar. It
matters, but not a lot.

 
> Beggin' yer pardon, yer lordship, but 'ow would you know if 
> you met one?  [snip] None of them has any reason to seek 
> out Bruce to inform him as to why they dropped a certain 
> usage.  So, Bruce doesn't know what led to long-term 
> acceptance or rejection in most cases... or does he?

Thanks - I haven't seen such an impressive piece of sarcasm for a long time.
However, you have heard of something called research, haven't you? If being
prescriptive had any effect on the natural ebb and flow of language, then surely
there would be a known case or two? 

I'm not a professional linguist, so I can't say for sure that there isn't a
case. That's  why I worded it the way I did; I was hoping that if someone knew
of one, it would be mentioned. However, I do have enough background to say that
groups like the French Academy have been notably unsuccessful in shaping a
language. If there are any contrary examples (which I doubt), they are certainly
rare. People change and improvise language to meet their needs, regardless of
what the elite tell them they should be doing.

In fact, a case could be made that being steeped in the standards of the elite
tends to decrease linguistic creativity. Changes in a language tend to come from
outside the elite. And, while mentioning Shakespeare in a discussion about
language should probably be like calling your opponent a Nazi in any other
Internet discussion (that is, grounds for instantly losing the argument), it may
be worth noting that many words are used for the first time in his work, yet he
was only indifferently educated. The same is true of Thomas Hardy.

> Well, every time you write yet another drearily conforming 
> sentence, you undermine that point. 

Since you go off to answer an argument that I never made, I think you've
misunderstood me - and proven the point that I was really making. From what you
write, you associate grammar and writing well so closely that you can't even
consider the possibility that they could have a relation that is different from
the one you assume. 

That, I submit, is a neurosis. And I should know it; as a member of the elite, I
have it, too. The difference is that I know that I have one, and realize that it
doesn't conform with reality. 
 
> Do you have examples of suffering writing technique 
> from somebody who has ever indulged in a grammar/usage 
> thread on this list... or on CEL, or wherever?

That's not my point. My point is that the grammar neurosis is so strong that
even working professionals are far more interested in being grammatically
correct than in writing technique.

-- 
Bruce Byfield 

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