Re: Rumor about FrameMaker - is it true?

[David Neeley <dbneeley -at- gmail -dot- com>]

Phillip,

Yes, you were "talking out of your hat" about sales numbers that are
not accessible to you or to me...as you have admitted with your bit of
pique.

Do you, perchance, have an indication of "FrameMaker in cumulative or
standalone quarterly sales volume?" No, I thought not.

Yes, FrameMaker is well established in tech pubs...but tech pubs is a
small slice of the market for document layout applications.

Further, not everyone has been on the constant upgrade treadmill with
FrameMaker, either. Informal indications I get are that many do not
upgrade often...some, in fact, are still on version 5.5 of Frame.

By contrast, Adobe has pushed InDesign through inclusion in the
Creative Suite, as you have indicated.

The only "unsubstantiated assertions" I have seen on this topic are
yours, in which you *assume* the sales of Frame in comparison to
InDesign. I have attempted to point out that you have no concrete
knowledge of that comparison...which your detailed response clearly
shows.

I was not attempting by any means to attack you, only the assumption
that Frame is such a huge-selling application. It is not.

I also pointed out that as long doc features *are* added to InDesign,
it may become a compelling combination for many shops...and that all
indications are that these features are, in fact, being slowly folded
into the InDesign mix.

Contrary to your flat assertion that "Again, InDesign is NOT
positioned to compete with Frame in ANY way. InDesign was created to
internally replace Adobe PageMaker and to compete with QuarkXPress and
its bevy of wannabes," I pointed you to the interview in which Bruce
Chizen *said* that the InDesign code base would be enhanced with the
long-doc features of Frame.

Of course, unlike you or me, Mr. Chizen *is* in a position to know
these things since he works as Adobe CEO.

In fact, InDesign has been designed with many modular programming
features to make additons and upgrades far easier than with earlier
technology. It appears, in fact, to be an attempt to begin cutting
down the support headaches that come from fielding multiple products.

Adobe's actions regarding Frame are highly indicative of their
strategy, and would support fully Mr. Chisen's statements.

Where they have dropped the ball, in my judgement, is in not already
having created a MIF import filter and some of the associated doc
capabilities in InDesign prior to dropping the Mac version of
Frame...but that is another story.

I must defer to your own assessment as to whether your mind is
"relatively blank" but I would suggest that you have *no* factual
basis upon which to "intuit, interpolate, or extrapolate" regarding
sales numbers of either product. However, every indication I have is
that InDesign is now rapidly becoming the tool of choice for layout
requirements of many kinds. The comments of another membver here
regarding the defections from Quark are typical--in personal contacts
and on various other specialized mail lists regarding the design
community.

>From Adobe's standpoint, "installed customer base" means absolutely
nothing unless it can serve to generate both new sales and upgrades.
After all, they get no revenue from those who are current paid users.

I have no need to prove anything to you or anyone else for merely
pointing out the facts of the matter that are readily accessible.

What I can tell you, though, is that from discussions with the primary
Adobe rep for Frame (who is based here in Dallas) that they are *very*
happy with the InDesign performance lately.

In case you were unaware of it, the recent downturn in various of the
tech pubs markets have impacted sales of Frame substantially. For
example, the single largest customer for Frame was Nortel
Networks--whose American headquarters in Richardson is a primary
reason for the Adobe rep most responsible for Frame being located
here. When I was at Nortel in 2001, they alone had about two hundred
fifty seats in tech pubs alone equipped with Frame (plus *many*
engineers with it also). Two doc groups--wireless and wireside, as
they called them--were later consolidated and the headcount went from
250 to 12, total.

This scenario was repeated throughout the telecomm industry--which was
most heavily located in this area, and which was the most successful
industry segment for Frame sales.

In addition, some other incremental sales have been lost with the
abandonment of the Mac platform--especially, as I understand it, in
Germany.

Add this all together, and your statements about how much you can
"intuit" about Frame and its installed base is largely the figment of
a very active imagination and not grounded in the reality of the
product.

For many reasons, then, I happen to *believe* Mr. Chizen in his
statement that Frame's long doc features will be folded into the
InDesign code base. Some already have been, many others are in process
as I understand it.

So yes, I'd say you were indeed "talking through your hat" and your
response only illustrates the truth of that assertion.

Meanwhile, their Creative Suite has been a substantial hit, boosting
InDesign sales greatly. In the twenty or so design shops I am familiar
with locally, most have already dropped Quark in favor of InDesign.

As I have siad previously, I am quite fond of FrameMaker and have used
it since its first incarnation on the Windows platform as well as on
UNIX. I am also fond of InDesign since it turned to version 2.0
(earlier than that it was largely useless IMHO).

However, I for one am not a "tools bigot" and will use whatever is the
best solution for the project and the customer. In fact, my next tool
review will be to examine the open source Scribus DTP application on
Linux. I will be exploring the question of whether it can be
incorporated usefully into a document workflow for our purposes.

I invite any list member to review this thread and determine which
seems to be more balanced and fair in presenting the facts and
speculation regarding those facts.

Cordially,

David

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