RE: "Up with which I will not put" (was: RE: "and then, " or simply "then"?)

["Downing, David" <DavidDowning -at- users -dot- com>]

Yes, this was the point I was trying to make.

-----Original Message-----
From: Odile Sullivan-Tarazi [mailto:odile -at- mindspring -dot- com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 3:50 PM
To: Downing, David
Cc: techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
Subject: RE: "Up with which I will not put" (was: RE: "and then," or
simply "then"?)


Well, quite possibly there is.  But I think more likely is what Keith 
notes (or my take on it), in a subsequent message.

When people struggle at all costs to follow rules -- particularly, to 
my mind, this set of rules so often taught, and, alas, so easily 
remembered, yet having so little to do with real English structure -- 
the writing itself often suffers.  Or perhaps it's the case that 
writers who latch onto these "rules" (don't end on a preposition, 
don't split an infinitive, don't begin a sentence with "and" or 
"but," don't begin one with "because," and on an on) haven't a good 
sense of the language to begin with?  If their instruction has been 
limited to this sort of nonsense, then whatever talent they brought 
to the classroom was not nurtured.

Whatever the explanation, what Keith observed I have encountered 
often.  Scrupulous attention to the minutia of a myriad of 
grammatical rules (often nonrules), coupled with an almost complete 
inability to write.  Sentences are awkward, passages do not flow. 
[Comma intentional]

Give me someone who can't punctuate worth a damn, and who abuses any 
number of rules of small import, but whose writing has drama and 
flair and force.  Okay, in technical writing, perhaps not drama, but 
you get what I mean.

Perhaps you and I are on the same page with this.


Odile




At 1:50 PM -0500 9/24/08, Downing, David wrote:

>Okay, that didn't work either. Well, there MYST be an example of a
>grammatically correct sentence that sounds less natural and more 
>awkward than a grammatically incorrect version. I'll probably think 
>of it at three o'clock in the morning.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Odile Sullivan-Tarazi [mailto:odile -at- mindspring -dot- com]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 2:38 PM
>To: Downing, David
>Cc: Odile Sullivan-Tarazi; techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>Subject: RE: "Up with which I will not put" (was: RE: "and then," or
>simply "then"?)
>
>
>No, it is not grammatically incorrect to split infinitives, just as
>it is not grammatically incorrect to end on a preposition.  Both of
>these strategies are native to the language.  Those "rules"
>(nonrules, really) came long ago from Latin grammarians who were
>attempting to impose the grammar of Latin upon the grammar of English.
>
>"To boldly go" is precisely and exactly right, in English.
>
>
>Odile
>
>
>
>At 1:29 PM -0500 9/24/08, Downing, David wrote:
>>Okay. Bad example. Let's try another one. It is grammatically
incorrect
>>to split infinitives. Yet, the phrase, "To boldly go where no man has
>>gone before," is famous in cult classic TV history. I don't think
that,
>>"To go boldly where no man has gone before," would have sounded nearly
>>as cool.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Odile Sullivan-Tarazi [mailto:odile -at- mindspring -dot- com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 2:09 PM
>>To: Downing, David
>>Cc: techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>>Subject: "Up with which I will not put" (was: RE: "and then," or
simply
>>"then"?)
>>
>>
>>Actually, this sentence is *not* grammatically correct, nor does it
>>illustrate the absurdity (though it purports to) one frequently finds
>>oneself in by attempting to never end on a preposition.  The phrase
>>"to put up with" is a phrasal verb, and it must be kept intact.
>>
>>But it's still funny.
>>
>  >
>>
>>Odile
>>
>>
>>
>>At 12:40 PM -0500 9/24/08, Downing, David wrote:
>>>------------------------------
>>>
>><snip>
>>>
>>>But this reminds me of a famous example of a sentence that's
>>>grammatically correct, yet sounds very awkward and unnatural. The
>>>speaker was talking about ending a sentence with a preposition, and
>>>said, "This is a practice up with which I will not put."
>>>
>>>I agree that glaringly bad grammar is disturbing, and that as
writers,
>>>we should always show others, by example, the correct way to do
>things.
>>>But when it gets to the point of writing statements that sound
>>downright
>>>unnatural, that's another story.
>  >>
>>>David

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