Re: reduced relative clause: -ing form vs. which

[Phil Snow Leopard <philstokes03 -at- googlemail -dot- com>]

'that' and 'which' are semantically equivalent when used in adjective clauses and not preceded by a comma. 

There is no difference between 'restrictive', 'defining', or 'necessary' - they are synonyms for the same function.

Old-school grammar teachers will know that 'relative clause' is a fancy modern name for 'adjective clause', a far more useful moniker in my book, as it tells the function of the clause, which is to describe the noun or noun phrase (or occassionally the sense of the whole preceding main clause) that it immediately follows.

Phil
On 29 Mar 2012, at 21:39, McLauchlan, Kevin wrote:

> I disagree. The guy who talked about restrictive clause had the idea...
> 
> To me, [a] and [c] are equivalent and are probably the useful ones in this context. 
> They say that a custom map is a ZIP file (a general type of object, not necessarily an identical equivalent to a custom map, since ZIP files can be many more things than custom maps), and they say what that particular _instance_ or type of a ZIP file happens to contain.  The definition of a "custom map" is not that it is a ZIP file. The definition of a "custom map" is that it is a particular subset of ZIP file, based on particular contents.
> 
> Item [b], by the use of "which", _defines_ what a ZIP file is (in this case, a ZIP file is defined as containing whatever items are listed after "...the following...").  That's wrong. 
> Either a ZIP file is a compressed archive of any of a vast assortment of possible file contents, OR a ZIP file is now redefined to be "a thing containing exactly what a 'custom map' would contain".
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: techwr-l-bounces+kevin -dot- mclauchlan=safenet-inc -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-
>> l.com [mailto:techwr-l-bounces+kevin.mclauchlan=safenet-
>> inc -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com] On Behalf Of Phil Snow Leopard
>> Sent: March-29-12 10:26 AM
>> To: B.J. Smith
>> Cc: techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>> Subject: Re: reduced relative clause: -ing form vs. which
>> 
>> All of the following are grammatically correct and all mean the same
>> thing:
>> 
>> [a] A custom map is a ZIP file containing the following...
>> 
>> [b] A custom map is a ZIP file which contains the following...
>> 
>> [c] A custom map is a Zip file that contains the following...
>> 
>> Both [b] and [c] are defining relative clauses. I wouldn't call [a] a
>> clause at all (though some grammar books do) because for me a clause by
>> definition has to have a subject and a tensed verb.
>> 
>> I'd call [a] (or at least this part of it "containing the
>> following...") either an adjective phrase or a participle phrase.
>> 
>> As for usage, personally I prefer to use the least verbiage to get the
>> message across clearly, so I'd plump for [a] other things being equal.
>> Those "other things" might include:
>> 
>> -In some genres and styles of writing, its better to be verbose
>> -in some genres you may want to vary sentence patterns (e.g., if you
>> had a couple of sentences with defining relative clauses one after the
>> other, you might want to use the adjective phrase to avoid a repetitive
>> style).
>> 
>> The short answer is there is no 'correct' or 'more correct' pattern to
>> use in any absolute sense. Like so many things with writing (and what
>> makes it an art), It's a matter of style, context and purpose.
>> 
>> Best
>> 
>> Phil
>> 
>> On 29 Mar 20 12, at 21:14, B.J. Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm not sure about the "reduced relative clause" question, but I
>> would prefer [b] after replacing "which" with "that."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 3/29/2012 7:46 AM, Yves Barbion wrote:
>>>> Hi again group
>>>> 
>>>> Which do you prefer and why:
>>>> 
>>>> [a] A custom map is a ZIP file containing the following...
>>>> 
>>>> [b] A custom map is a ZIP file which contains the following...
>>>> 
>>>> Am I right in thinking that "a" is a "reduced relative clause",
>> which is
>>>> incorrect in this particular example?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> 
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