Re: The Ugly Incident/sexism

["McMARTIN, Robert" <rmcmarti -at- BAEA -dot- COM -dot- AU>]

As Bruce is unable to answer to the list, at this date, so  I'll respond
in his stead.

It is true that the connotation used in the words can have vastly
different meanings
both in how the words are used and said.

It still doesn't change anything.  Some people can be the nicest
co-workers and the
worse bosses.  Do they change their behavior, because of the job, or do
they change to
what they believe the job needs.

A person is a person, it is not until something is added to the equation
which changes
Joe, or Betty co-worker into the Boss from Hell.

Everyone on this list would probably no some one who changed and I'm
willing to bet
have called them by some of the names that have had both George and
Bruce suspended.

Speaking for myself, if a person is a mongrel too me, I will be a
mongrel back.  If a person
treats me with dignaty and respect they will receive the same.  But I
will do not tolerate a
loud mouth of any gender, rabbiting on to me, denigrating my ability, or
belittling me.

Enough I will no longer rise to this thread, I'm bored with it.

It was fun although I'm not sure if George :D and Bruce :-) would see it
that way.

Rob




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Whitney [SMTP:WHITNEMR -at- MORRISVILLE -dot- EDU]
> Sent: Wednesday, 21 October 1998 13:27
> To:   TECHWR-L -at- LISTSERV -dot- OKSTATE -dot- EDU
> Subject:      Re: The Ugly Incident/sexism
>
> Bruce says:
> You missed the point Mark.
>
> A loud mouth is a loud mouth. Male or female. We weren't talking about
> ability.
>
> You complain of a loud mouthed female being called a bitch (to quote
> others). Have you EVER heard a female called an arse'ole, prick,
> bastard,
> mongrel etc etc (we all know the swear words).
>
> The answer is no. These are terms saved for the male equivalent of a
> 'bitch'.
>
> And as I've previously stated, the size of the mouth is usually the
> opposite of the size of the ability. Male or female.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ___
> Me:
>    I'm sorry, Bruce. I must respectfully disagree.  I agree that there
> are
> certainly "loudmouths" of both genders, and that they can be a real
> pain to
> work for, but that was not my point.
>    The point I was trying to illustrate, which has numerous studies in
> support, is that there is a double standard for women in the
> workplace. You
> point out that there are words the equivilent of "bitch" for males,
> and that
> is certainly true. But what matters is the interpretation of those
> terms.
> In other words, if an employee calls a male a "bastard" it may have an
> entirely different connotation (and ramifications) than if that same
> employee calls a female a "bitch."
>    The difference is that the male terms are often not viewed
> negatively, or
> at the very least rationalized... (oh, ya gots to be a bastard to get
> the job
> done, and he gets the job done). However, a female who also tries to
> get the
> job done may be labelled a "bitch" for what is typically perceived as
> standard male behavior (Yeah, she's tryin to get the job done, but
> she's a
> pushy bitch and I can't work for her). In other words, the EXACT same
> behavior
> is tolerated, and even condoned, for men, yet villified for women. So,
> women
> may be labelled a "loudmouth" (in the negative context we've been
> using here)
> when all they're doing is acting like a typical "non-loudmouth" male
> counter-
> part.
>    An added effect is that when women don't want to be perceived that
> way
> (and who would?), they are viewed as too passive to be given the plum
> assignments. Bummer all the way around.
>
>                             Mark Whitney
>                             Communications Dept
>                             SUNY Morrisville
>
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